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Jennifer Fenring
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Posted - 2010.06.09 09:20:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Just extend it to 450m SP but then you can bet someone will complain that they ran out of skills to train instead.
Let's try and find out .......
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.10 09:22:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 10/06/2010 09:22:59
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Cate Fenring
Next to the fact that there's more and more and more skills each expansion, the gap between new and old players becomes bigger and bigger.
The entire argumentation falls on this one statement.
There is no need for newer players to catch up.
Which doesn't mean it's not a very discouraging aspect for a lot of people.
Personally I don't mind that I may never fly a supercarrier, titan or deathstar but on the other hand I do mind that it all takes so extremely long and it requires a lifetime to even be able to fly a single cruiser at 100%.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.10 11:13:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tippia
*snip*
It's not entirely true of course. I once had a duel with a veteran corp member and my damage output was just too little to get through his uber tank, even if I outsmarted him. With better skills I would have been able to break it and with less skills to V he wouldn't be able to tank my damage.
So no your long story doesn't stand at all. Of course tactics play a role but in other games as well, certain builds just own others, with good or bad skills or equipment.
SP, more = better, higher = more powerful? It IS true.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.10 11:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tippia
You could also have beaten him by not playing to his strengths and your weaknesses. So yes, my story stands.
What on earth do you mean?
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.10 11:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tippia
Simply having more SP does not make someone harder to hit; it does not make do you take less damage; it does not provide you with any pre-determined benefits.
Ofc - but any combat pilot veteran is much faster, does far more damage, has more shield and armour, repairs a lot more with less cap than a rookie. I think that can't be denied.
Sure, if I had to fight a 10 m SP industrial character with no combat and defense skills in a Retriever I may have won. In that you're definitely right of course. But confrontations usually don't work like that.
A very nice story about specializations but veteran characters with dozens of millions of sp have pretty much everything covered.
And "hard cap easy to reach"? What's your definition of easy? 2 years? 3 years?
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.10 12:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tippia
In practice, "catching up" is easy, fast, and almost entirely unnecessary to the point of being irrelevant. If there's anything skill-related I wish people could be able to buy, it's that insight.
I think that the main difference is that in your view 2 years is "fast".
And that's for frigates? What about cruisers?
For the rest I can see your point.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.10 12:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 10/06/2010 12:52:45
Originally by: Tippia
That's the plan I put together for a mission battleship (as an example of a particular domain). Although, tbh, I can't be sure if it really included the things I'd consider useful, such as the social skillsą anyway, as a guesstimate, it works pretty well.
What you say is undoubtably true and I really hated the inherent level resistance thing in wow (happy to be rid of it).
The thing is of course that although the ridiculous inherent xp thing existed, getting "on par" only takes a few months - perhaps half a year if you play only very little - and not a few years. That's why I'm in favour of speeding up the skilltraining in EVE a little. It's a bit sad that EVE requires so much time while there's so much to train.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.11 06:56:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 11/06/2010 06:56:45
Originally by: Larsente
EQ couldn't get any new players because of the insurmountable task of not being able to "catch up" and WoW felt like you never got anything for putting in your time.
The trick is to find some sort of balance for your players. I too find it daunting as a new EVE player with only 1m sp so far to think I will never catch up to the old timers - but I also find it comforting to know that future players will have to jump over all the same hurdles that I had in order to get where I am or where I'm going.
Yes a very good point, in the end it's all about balance.
What I'd like and which lies somewhere in between is being able to fly ships up to battleships of one race within a year. And I mean: with optmized skills. I don't really bother about carriers or titans or whatever. But the time needed to be able to fly a BS well and joining in with the mainstream 0.0 fleet warfare or L4 mission activities - I think 1 year is about right for that.
One year is still quite an investment and on the other hands the older players still have their extra skills for t2 BS, titans, supercarriers, deathstars and on and may be able to mine, manufacture as well and be far far more versatile.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.11 08:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
So the only way to contribute in fleets is in battleships with T2 weapons...
No room for less experienced players in cheaper than dirt frigates and cruisers preforming various supporting roles like painting, jamming, scrambling, dampening, disrupting and what not.
I never said you can't contribute. I said that I feel it's reasonable to be able to be a decent BS pilot in 1 year because the mainstream activities happen in that kind of vessel.
The first few months of a new player he/she ofc can do what you propose - but as a veteran no-one stops you from flying frigs with utility either?
The other way around though ..
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.16 07:39:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 16/06/2010 07:40:36
Of course a rookie can kill that 80 million SP character - if he's hauling stuff in an industrial.
Of course a rookie can kill anyone in a shuttle.
Of course a rookie can kill a 5 year old player when he flies the wrong ship.
Doh.
But that's true for a lot of games. For example guild wars isn't any different - or any other game that has the slightest rock-paper-scissors concept. EVE isn't unique what that's concerned.
What I'm more concerned about is when you meet on equal footing. The "basic combat skills" already take more than a year to train. No you don't stand much of a chance if you are a rookie, fly the same ship type but your oponent has 50% more speed, range, shields, armour and firepower to start with.
I wish the game was a bit more about player skill and a bit less about SP grinding.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.16 16:20:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 16/06/2010 16:23:12
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 16/06/2010 16:21:32
Originally by: McRoll
You dont seem to get the very basic definition of an attribute based MMO.
The player who has played longer, has better attributes, because he spent his time in game training or grinding that attributes. What you basically want is to be able to compete on an equal level as a rookie against an older charakter.
Of course it's everyone's intention to be on par with other players. And since EVE has skilltrees like other games, it's also understood that you have to train specific ones to be good at one thing.
- I don't have a problem with specialization;
- I don't have a problem with people being better at things than rookies
- I don't mind waiting for a while;
- I don't mind that it takes a few years to skill for carriers or other very advanced stuff;
- But I DO have a problem with the fact that it takes YEARS to get on par on just things like cruisers and medium weapons, which are somewhere at the bottom. Yes every game has a curve but this takes VERY long, a bit too long imo. And as a icing on the cake you also have months of learning skills - yes they're "optional" but if you don't train them it will take 3 years.
THAT'S basically what annoys me and what I'd like to see changed.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:06:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 16/06/2010 20:16:31
To really have your relevant cruiser skills at V for example a Rupture - including shield, armor, navigation, electronics, engineering, spaceship command, science, gunnery and missile to V - takes around 2.5 to 3 years. Not counting any EWAR skills, with a full EWAR aresenal at your disposal it's even ~ half a year more.
Sure you can fly a battleship within 2 weeks. Sure you can fly t2 within a few months. Of course you can equip it with t2 stuff within 6 months or so. But that's still not optimized.
Proof? Get your EVEmon and make a new character. Train every relevant skill that a t1 cruiser benefits from to V. Then post again.
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